I particpated in this comment thread on Facebook this morning. I’m certain there is more to come. But I have to say that in my opinion there are some pagans and witches out there who do far more harm to our cause than anyone who says they are against us. Gah, the ignorant bullshit that is being spouted out there. The harmful things we say to each other in the name of our path. *rant*
Susan: According to my cousin Jane in DC, it’s quite a scene down at Superior Court right now, with same sex couples in line for marriage licenses, Fred Phelps’ wingnuts shouting that god hates fags, and dc clergy united for marriage equality singing hymns to drown them out. Wish i was there to see!
Thomas: Well, you know the Christian God is showing love when His people are yelling hate speeches like “GOD HATES FAGS!” Thankfully, I am not Christian…..
Cynthia: The Christian God isnt’ like that at all. It’s the folks who call themselves Christian but hang with the old angry punishing Yaweh who think those things.
The Christian God is about love.
‘You must love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, and all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. A second is equally important: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ The entire law and all the demands of the prophets are based on these two commandments.” (Matthew 22:36-40)
For what it’s worth, I’m a witch who loves Jesus. Woo!
Thomas: You’re a Witch who loves Jesus? Are you serious? If you’re a Witch and believe in the tenants of Witchcraft and/or Wicca, you do not believe in a Jesus. Jesus is a Christian concept. And conversely, Christians certainly don’t believe in a God/Goddess concept. Even moreover, Christianity and Jesus certainly don’t believe in magick- “magick” is achieved through prayer and other methods in Christianity.
I am absolutely floored to learn of this and even more so, I’m scared for the people whose lives you touch on a daily basis…..
Cynthia: Wow. Nice flame attack. Many loved ones, thank you very much. I love you too. 🙂 I wasn’t aware that you wrote the rules of Witchcraft and had the right to tell me how to be a witch. Mea culpa, maxima mea culpa. You’ve done more harm in your comment than I’ve seen in a long time. Closed minded bigotry is not something I’m very interested in. Mother Mary is decidedly a Goddess with her son (although not her consort) Jesus.
Totally serious. I beg your pardon but I am a British trad initiated witch who believes that some of the tenets Jesus preached have some merits. I think Buddha had some vastly important thoughts as well as many of the Hindi pantheon and others around the globe. Yemaya, Isis, Diana, Cernunnos…. So far, in over 20+ years of study I’ve found nothing that says that the two are mutually exclusive, witch and christian. So the only deity I can’t find interesting is Jesus? That is off limits and makes me a fraud and a pariah? Dangerous? Oh, wait, Satan is off limits too. And for me, that last is true. But the rest of the Gods of the world? As witch I can choose to work with any of them I like. It doesn’t make me dangerous OR stupid OR something other than a witch. It makes me a witch who is brave enough to follow her heart and who keeps an open mind as she looks for as many spiritual truths as she can find.
I also am more interested in the Gnostic Christianity which is most likely akin to the original Christianity than the hateful mish-mosh that we see on the media. Jesus is just another hanged god. Another deity as valid as any other deity such as:
- Hindu (Krishna)
- Egyptian (Osiris)
- Babylonian (Tammuz)
- Norse (Baldr) (updated edit: I see I should have kept my original answer, which was Odin but I took the word of another on the internet instead of trusting my own judgement. )
- Roman-ish (Mithras)
- Slavic (Veles)
There are witches that consider themselves Asatru, or Native American shamanic. American witchcraft and paganality uses spiritually valid precepts from many different world paths, that is what makes us unique. I’m not throwing out a prophet who said that Love is the answer simply because you say so. You are no authority sir. I’ve been trained by some of the best and they say that doing research and thinking for myself is one of the BEST qualities of any witch. Not spewing hateful tripe at total strangers based on one sentence.
BTW thinking Jesus is a cool dude does NOT equal saying that I am Christian. I never said that. I said I love Jesus. I love a lot of other Gods too. And they love me right back.
Paul: See, and thats why I swore of the whole god/godess thing – leads to an your’e a what, that’s unpossible??? Or the I am a Blah Blah Blahist, intiatated by or a member of such and such a circle/church. bullshit arguments..I’m me and I think like I do, and you ain’t gonna change me. Do something to someone or something,that you shouldn’t and you won’t have to worry about “God/Goddess Wrath”….I’ll mess you up all by myself.
Cynthia: Ha! Well there it is in a nutshell. harm none or pay the consequences… A spiritual truth around the world. I don’t think there is anything wrong with discussion about our beliefs and why we believe them. He stated I wasn’t a witch, I gave my credentials. Perfectly valid and not bullshit. I think we need more discussion myself instead of knee jerk you’re wrong because I say so.
Witches cannot be Asatru. It does not matter what they “consider” themselves. Stop trying to muddy the waters and insult the faiths of others by insisting that your ridiculous “religion” can pretend to be other religions at the same time. Wicca is a load of modern crap pretending to be ancient wisdom. At least Christianity has a claim to being an old religion.
And furthermore, my gods do not love you. Quite the opposite, if you were to present yourself to Odin he’d sooner cleave your head in two than give you hospitality. That’s what the gods do with weaklings who can’t make up their mind.
Finally, Baldr is not a “hanged god.” Get your facts straight. Odin hung from Yggdrasil for nine days. Baldr died with a spear of mistletoe through his heart.
I see my point was right on the money…
I must have finally made it into the blog world of notice. My first hate letter! Woohoo!!! Thanks for being my first Rick!
After having slept on this I can add::
Bwahahahahahaha. This is even more hilarious in the fresh light of morning. And oh, so pitifully sad. People believe what they believe, no stopping that one.
A fundie pagan. What a novel and original and well thought out spew of bullshit.
Update on the Facebook discussion: 65 comments and three more threads started. Lots of fun. Thomas found his mind is wide open and Paul disclosed that his spiritual guru is Vodka. That went a long way with me I assure you. Sheri bawled Paul out for his behavior (which became far worse and then improved after the public disciplinary action). In the end we all agreed that every one is entitled to believe what they want to believe, to call themselves whatever they want, and that religious freedom, personal freedom, and freedom of speech as long as its civil is the goal.
Yes, people believe what they believe, no stopping them, and they hate, too, even neo-pagans. But why?
Why are they so threatened? What is so threatening about you, or me for that matter? What can our opinions, or what we believe, or what we call ourselves, possibly mean to them? How can we, as individuals, affect them, their lives, or their spiritual beliefs, to the point where they feel it is necessary, appropriate, and their outright responsibility to spew such garbage and hate?
Cleave my head in two, forsooth. Since Odin was known for practicing magic himself, I hardly think he would be likely to kill a modern witch on sight. All “religions” are based upon mythology, including Christianity and Asatru, but the practice of witchcraft (and I must note here neither of us practice Wicca) is not a “religion.” Cunning men and women, practitioners of the craft, have operated at every level of society throughout every age and within every religion. A case can be made that Jesus himself practiced the craft if one accepts him as a rabbi using the tools of magical knowledge to heal the sick and raise the dead, rather than as an earth-bound deity. Most assuredly, communities which practiced Asatru before the advent of Christianity had their own magical healers and soothsayers, so for a modern witch to practice Asatru is not incompatible, just as it is not incompatible for a modern witch to practice Christianity (difficult but not impossible).
I’m so glad you got the message out that “doing research and thinking for myself is one of the BEST qualities of any witch.” I can’t agree enough. I would go one step further and say reading, researching and understanding conflicting viewpoints is necessary so that one can think for ones self, and ultimately leads to the development of ones critical thinking ability. Once this ability is developed, it becomes ever so clear that all religions are intertwined, one building upon another, that belief is malleable and needs to be malleable, that belief is a personal choice not to be dictated by anyone or any organization or institution, and that organized religion is unnecessary and, in fact, dangerous.
Organized religion turns beliefs into rigid unbendable ideologies that have to be defended against other beliefs, and defensiveness breeds hate.
By and large, most witches are not religious; they are spiritual but forgo any organized religion, preferring to communicate and work with a wide variety of spiritual entities, Gods and Goddesses on a one-on-one personal basis. This doesn’t mean they haven’t studied and don’t know and understand most religions and religious organizations, past and present; a competent witch never stops learning, or forgiving ignorance, or loving the unlovable.
Good discussion, my sister.
I love you!
This morning, yes the troll was thomas again:
Thomas: Oh, yes. I’m hateful because you’re a raging fool with no beginning or end to your experiences. Go focus on your burnt-to-the-ground house and stop Facebooking.
Cynthia: But see that’s my point Thomas. As long as you are alive there is no beginning nor end to our experiences, they continue every day. If we are truly living our life, our experiences and adventures are varied and interesting and bring us to places that expand our minds to be more inclusive. They bring us to a place where we don’t have to censor others or feel threatened by their beliefs when they don’t match our own. They bring us to compassion.
Hekate there is no end to his hate… For that I got called a whore, crazy, wingnut, bitch, all kinds of vitriol. I am so proud of myself. I stuck the conversation and only once did I call him My Jackass and only once did I call him an asshole and I’d been pushed to the limit.
Troll wars can’t be won; trolls play just to hear themselves bray.